Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[THKNKG]

I’m going to give you a lot of calcs offensively and defensively, to demonstrate that this thing is insane and you should experiment with it.

First, for the sub/toxic specially defensive set, I’ll post the calc and put what it can do back in parentheses after, since even uninvested it’s still so strong.

Some Spicy Relevant defensive calculations

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Both in Psychic Terrain: 89-105 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 68% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (easy 2hko, ~70-80%)
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Both: 186-222 (57.4 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (56% to ohko, guaranteed w/ rocks)
• 252 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Both: 84-99 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- 50.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (3hko)
• 252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Both in Electric Terrain: 88-105 (27.1 - 32.4%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (2hko)
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Both: 69-81 (21.2 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (prolly best to eat a hit and toxic it, but earth power does 2hko if specs, high chance to 3hko with earth power if not specs
• 252 SpA Blacephalon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Both: 270-320 (83.3 - 98.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (you ohko)
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Both: 252-296 (77.7 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (you die to overheat, and have a high chance to live flamethrower)
• 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Both: 234-276 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (2hko w/ rocks)

For most of those, the point was not to suggest you use Aegislash to beat those mons, it was just to point out that it *can*. I think it’s a heavily overlooked steel, especially since Gapdos and Lucha are always pretty present threats (especially the former more recently), and this guy doesn’t even really care with a SpDef set, so neutral hits are just gonna bounce off (heck, the dude lives a +1 flamethrower from offensive volc and can toxic it - +1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Both: 258-306 (79.6 - 94.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

Now, another set that I’ve used, specs, hits insanely hard. Those annoying bulky cores you gotta break through? This guy has you covered (and just to get it out of the way, CC on specs even modest still 2hko blissey, so shadow ball immunes aren’t really an issue). This is 252+ specs, and to make it easier to read, I took some words out, but it’s all shadow ball calcs

That’s a lotta damage

• (max SpDef) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 189-223 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 235-277 (58.8 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 174-205 (45 - 53.1%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Clefable: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• duh
• vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Ferrothorn: 157-186 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 153-180 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• you have a chance to 2hko it even with shadow ball lol, so much damage
• duh
• vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 343-405 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 181-214 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 259-306 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• dies 2x lol
• flash cannon obv kills but - vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 249-294 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 144-169 (32.5 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
• vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Hippowdon: 202-238 (48 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• AV - vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 156-184 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I could go further (like that it almost 2hko bulky dragon dance dnite with first hit multiscale) but the point is, the guy can live nearly any hit in the tier depending on spreads, and if you just go with something like specs or spell tag, he’s gonna live most hits anyway and kill them back.

even if you don’t plan to use this mon, you should look at the calcs just from these two sets to see how crazy it is. Plus, even with specs, you actually live hits from nearly anything I listed, especially if you ev Hp over speed.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

While we are talking about matchup fish mons, I thought I’d shine a little light on polteageist. In a tier where the only good dark types are offensive polteageist really shines. My personal favorite set is one with sub shell smash shadow ball and stored power, just so it has a way around blissey and can ease prediction with bisharp. Also cursed body works really well with sub as you can fish for a move to be disabled. When facing a team that is ill prepared, it can sometimes auto win on the spot. Really cool mon and I hope some of you check it out!

thank you Clone Clone for the tag and thank you Walletinspector62 for making suggestion about polteageist
(edit: if ur on mobile, the format and look of this post might be screwed up since i made it in pc)

The Superpowered Weakling, Of Glimwood Tangle, Polteageist

AHEM. Context:
SO Polteageist is probably my most used mon in SS OU since its release, Especially in crown tundra, despite me not touching it for a month now (ill get into why later) but ive used it since the beginning. its super powered stored power giving the opponents a shower of power.

Now, lets talk sets

Polteageist @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor/Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shell Smash
- Shadow Ball
- Stored Power
- Metronome/Substitute/Giga Drain

Theres realistically only one set (dont talk to me about a will-o-wisp or strenght sap garbage yall use in 1200) and that is the set above. now i shall explain to you why in gruesome detail.

PROLOGUE: Me and My Friends

WHAT IS POKEMON WITHOUT TEAMWORK? The perfect teammates for polteageist are offensive mons that beats dark types and heatran like Urshifu, Lele, chomp, Kartana etc. and anti hazard mons like Mandibuzz or eleki. polteageist also appreciates ghost resists like the already mentioned Mandibuzz or Weavile. Lele is also perfect for psychic terrain making its stored power from a 140BP psychic move to a 182BP psychic move after a shell smash (no weak armor). Magnezone is ALSO a perfect partner for it being a steel-trapper that pairs well with its teamate but also remove things like ferro, Corviknight and sometimes heatran which are mons that can take more than 1 hit from Polteageist (which it really hates)

The Thing Is...
Polteageist NEEDS to be built around. it is a mon with so many weaknesses that even with most of the darks in OU being offensive, its still very weak physically, yea behind screens u can bypass this but the fact it cant OHKO ferrothorn, means u need to take a hit which polteageist REALLY cant afford. if this is your first rodeo with it you better carry a whole lot of support, top tier mons like Weave, heatran, AV Torn, Spdef Corvi, tyranitar and a whole lot more invalidates it. so if you want this mon to work you have TO WORK FOR IT by building around it with mons that specifically beat its checks, supports it offensively and removes hazards, and the reward is a mon that invalidates offense, and destroy stall after a setup. the risk may not be worth it after reading this but you sure have to try to know.

But...
It has MASSIVE special defense, it lives scarf lele moonblast, koko thunder bolt, dragapult's shadow ball and Heatran's Magma Storm (After 12% chip).


CHAPTER 1: Abilities & Items

The Teapot only works on HO or atleast extremely offensive BOs. ill separate them into 2 batch by abilities, one is weak armor, the other is cursed body.

WEAK ARMOR: ​

First is the weak armor variant, this variant works best in anti hazard BO or Lead Drill/Lead :ladorus-therian: Lando HO that gets up hazard and wins immediately. the one i like using is on anti hazard BO. Weak Armor Polteageist is an offensive powerhouse more powerful than anything, if you have rocks up, it can almost one-shot everything not named blissey with stored power at +2+2+4 boost from shell smash. this is a perfect mon to have in the back as a "I have a threat that if not dealt with immediately, you will lose" or a Volcar-on-crack. Your opponent WILL respect this mon and WILL have something to deal with it in the back, and honestly, thats fine since it is a perfect distraction for you to be able to destroy your opponents with the other mons in your teams, but this thing is more than a distraction, oh yes it is. if the opposing team has been just a little beat weakened, a +2+2+4 Polteageist can RUN OVER through any team its nuts, if you are facing stall or HO this thing will destroy them so easily, as Stall cannot one shot it and if u are substitute, you cant do anything to it. To HO, you tank a very powerful hit and destroy their 0 defensive backbone team. although this thing is VERY WEAK to priority like weavile's Ice Shard and also Aqua Jet, you have to be sure to defeat those mons first before even THINKING of setting up. here are some calcs on Bulky/Defensive mons after hazard.

Calculations

+2 252 SpA Polteageist Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 319-376 (92.7 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Polteageist Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 333-392 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Polteageist Shadow Ball vs. 40 HP / 104 SpD Melmetal: 328-387 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Polteageist Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 459-540 (109.2 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Polteageist Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 357-420 (106.8 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Polteageist Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 437-515 (120.7 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To save time, 2hko Spdef Tran, Spdef Ferro, Spdef Corvi. and also AV Torn-T after rocks.

CURSED BODY
For those who are cowar- i mean dont like to live life on the edge, a white herb cursed body set might be just perfect for you. this set is perfect for Screen Offense teams since you have that extra security for setup. this set wont hit as hard as sash, but if you set it up right you can make it less prone to revenge kill by priority like ice shard and aqua jet. this also can more viably run substitute due to tankiness and can beat stall much better since you can safely set up 2 shell smash better.


CHAPTER 2: The Last Surprise
The last move on this mon is my favourite thing about it, despite its miniscule movepool, the creativity of it just brings it life. now the first one is the most standard and the move most people use is...

Giga Drain
Giga drain is realistically the best coverage move for this thing other than maybe psyshock. it can drop weakened ttar, rare krook, Swampert, gastro and other 4x weak to grasses. it also can let is heal meaning its able to survive more weak priority, weak moves from tanks like Glowking. it also can reactivate Focus Sash if it wasnt already used.

Substitute
IMO the best last move for this, substitute makes polteageist the more infuriating to fight, being able to sub on Blissey and mons switching out. This lets you get a free set-up or just an extra turn to attack, whichever works best for the moment. theres not much to say since its super simple, make stall regret their decission and make offense cry even more, and it can also be used to outplay sucker punch with less risk than shell smash.
now for the most fun last move...

Metronome
Before you roll your eyes or groan. Metronome Polteageist (+ Raboot ) got me to 1940 for the first time 3-4 months ago. this move SOLVES the problem of the bad movepool syndrome of polteageist and ALSO outplays sucker punch with extra safety and style. this move has gotten me through so many games that i legitimately think people should experiment with this move more as i will dump some replays supporting this down below later in the next chapter which is..

CHAPTER 3: Replays

Here are the replays with infos on the side
CLICK THE POKEMONS FOR THE REPLAY

A WHOLE LOTTA REPLAYS

BEST REPLAY HERE CLUTCHEST METRONOME
Metronome Evasion With Poltea (1600)
Polteageist kept in the back to be a threat, Metronome to outplay sucker punch (and baton pass) (1700)
Even when Paralyzed, You can metronome superpower on bisharp (1770-1800)
Polteageist Reverse swept HO againts Lucha (1700)
Polteageist Reverse swept after getting in vs a mon that cant kill it (1800)
Polteageist reverse sweeps a team after getting it in on a physical attacking mon (1700)
A +2+2+2 Polteageist has a LOT of power even beating a +2 spdef bulkarona (also hi Fusien )
Polteageist has a MASSIVE spdef stat living a hit from drago (1800-1950)
a weakened BO does NOT stand a chance (1750)
a 1890 game where it shows its dominance over weakened balance

CHAPTER 4: What is up with it?

What you have now is a mon with Hoopa-unbound levels of physical frailty, decent special bulk, HUUUUUGE special attack escpecially with shell smash weak armor boosted stored power, but it is checked by some of the best mons in the tier including weave, glowking, heatran, pult, av torn-t, spdef corv, spdef ferro, ttar, spdef fini, dragonite, and more. it is a mon you need to build around to unlock its full potential, and after using it since the start of SS, id say i know my way around it. i havent used it in a month due to its limitation (and also im bored after using it for so long lol) so if anyone want to use it. you can use this as a start here are lists of pokemon that are great pairings

List

(only on veil) (i prefer mandibuzz tho due to ghost resist) (as a spiker)

So thats about it, its 2 am currently at the time of writing this and item clause is dumb, never melt ice kyurem overrated yada-yada
also while making this post someone told me that on the last slot, use will-o-wisp for weave. i dont recommend it but he a friend so there.
good night gamers!

 

[Plushietran]

Mimikyu Stardust

How dare you summon the almighty one.


Jokes aside. Considering how strong ghost is as an offensive type, im happy to see more options for it being explored, Because after Dragapult rose in usage after the Cind/Mage ban we haven't seen more ghosts being explored aside from blace, so let this be a message for you to go out and test more things like teapot

also H momento look up

 

[Magcargo]

I think the case is that people hate boots spam on 4-5 pokemon, therefore making it infuriating to wear down. This is what I have heard, the item clause that people so want to prevent boots spam. But, what I have also heard is that banning boots is to extreeme or boots on its own when placed on 1-2 pokemon is not broken but it is annoying to face an entire team and just making 0 progress because nothing happens. I have never really heard another argument as to why this is the case other than "It makes certain pokemon broken like cinderace" which is the case with z-moves.

Maybe Boots spam was a problem earlier in the metagame, but I don't think its a huge issue now. With everything running Knock Off, it becomes harder to make use of the defensive utility of most boots mons like Volcarona and Dragonite, since things they should check, such as Kartana and Rillaboom, just cripple them with Knock Off anyways (its not like their Stealth Rock weakness has disappeared). You have to play very conservatively with these mons if you don't want to run a Defogger on your team, since they won't be able to pull off an endgame sweep otherwise.

On non-SR weak mons, running Boots also has a bit of an opportunity cost since you can't run other, more useful items like Leftovers or a power boosting item.

 

[theotherguytm]

I think the case is that people hate boots spam on 4-5 pokemon, therefore making it infuriating to wear down. This is what I have heard, the item clause that people so want to prevent boots spam. But, what I have also heard is that banning boots is to extreeme or boots on its own when placed on 1-2 pokemon is not broken but it is annoying to face an entire team and just making 0 progress because nothing happens. I have never really heard another argument as to why this is the case other than "It makes certain pokemon broken like cinderace" which is the case with z-moves.

Boots spam is bad because you're not spamming Lefties, therefore you get worn down by status, resisted hits etc. Boots pivots tend to either have Regenerator to get that recovery anyway (Slowbro, Tang, both of which would really like Helmet) or just be really fast to avoid taking hits altogether (Dragapult, Zeraora, Tapu Koko, all of which would like a damage-boosting item).
People who say Boots are broken need to reconsider the opportunity cost of not running other items that do more in mus against non-hazard stack teams. The fact basically all teams still run Rocks, Spikes and Tspikes are viable, and Webs is still playable should probably spell out Boots spam is not an actual strategy as much as it is a mu fish, and also shows how easy it is to Knock Boots, especially off defensive mons.
I don't think Boots Spam has ever been a problem in SS. It's just Cinderace was broke AF and people like to blame Boots for Cinderace's ability to beat any of its "counters" at will and U-turn for free on the rest.

 

[FreshJuice]

Here is my take on boots/item clause.


What does it accomplish in the first place?
People still gonna use boots volc, mandi, and shit.

And on "boots spam" as a team, how does it even work in the first place?
All your mons wear timbs?
There are other great items and classics like lefties.
Lets look at ou rn and see how many mons run boots.
Its blissey, Dragonite, kyurem, koko, torn, volc, vic, zap, zera, weavile. Bro would rather run helmet imo.
Yes others can run boots like pult but would rather prefer other items or in pults case, specs.

Out of these mons, only three mons are not weak to rocks.
And the weak one can run other items as well like specs kyurem, av torn and much more.
And coming back to the argument that boots invalidates hazards. THAT IS NOT TRUE BY THE SLIGHTEST!

Lets look at the spikers/rockers.
we have , ,
In these, two carry knock while have decent matchups against the above mons. Only volc and vic has an easy time against all the three. But other can do it as well.

Lets look at rockers(only which almost always carry it)
, , and many others.
Again ferrothorn has knock, lando has knock and just scares half of them lol.

The point i am trying to prove here is that rockers do have decent match ups against the boots mons.
And to the argument that webs is bad, (imo it was never meta, comparable to tr) Most mons which use boots are weak to rocks and many of them are flying types. So technically that literally does not change anything.

Conclusion.(tldr)
Ban Boots?
No.

Boots good?
Yes.

Item Clause?
Hell no.

Plus the tspikes setter pex has knock.

 

[MrHands]

I don't support a boots ban nor do I think item clause is worth it either. But just for the sake of argument I want to defend item clause because I think most people have never actually played a competitive singles format with it.

In 6th gen I played a lot of Battle Spot singles. I even reached #1 on the Showdown ladder! BSS has item clause and I found it actually did force creativity. Yeah Garchomp wants Life Orb but so does Blaziken. So okay, Garchomp gets Lum Berry, which Rest Rotom W wants... so Rotom gets Chesto Berry etc. Sometimes you find yourself considering weird items that you wouldn't use otherwise. It's less about min maxing and more about allocating limited resources. It adds another layer to the team building puzzle.

It also gives you in-battle info that you can't get without it. If my opponents Ferrothorn has Rocky Helmet, and their Kartana is Scarf, then I can guess the Landorus is probably Lefties. It just gives you data on the opponents team that would be raw guesswork otherwise.

I overall oppose item clause because I think it fixes something that isn't broken. It also prevents fun teams like mono Choice Band and kills more viable combos like dual Specs Ghosts. But it adds an odd dimension to team building and battles that is easily overlooked.

 

[Negative Charge]

I would really like to see an item clause ladder run for a few weeks just to see how it goes. I also feel very strongly about testing a form clause that would allow me to run a Slowking and Glowking on the same team. I think many of the thorny hypotheticals as to "what is a form" could be put aside by just starting with regional forms and go from there. There's some potentially interesting team comps hiding in a clause like this without creating matchup fiesta like removing species clause.

 

[pulsar512b]

I would really like to see an item clause ladder run for a few weeks just to see how it goes. I also feel very strongly about testing a form clause that would allow me to run a Slowking and Glowking on the same team. I think many of the thorny hypotheticals as to "what is a form" could be put aside by just starting with regional forms and go from there. There's some potentially interesting team comps hiding in a clause like this without creating matchup fiesta like removing species clause.

this much i honestly agree with- allowing different regional forms on the same team would be a nice change.
if you want to test item clause, dont do a ladder run for a few weeks, run a tour (similar to bootless), multiple ou roomtours, w/e

 

[Magcargo]

I don't support a boots ban nor do I think item clause is worth it either. But just for the sake of argument I want to defend item clause because I think most people have never actually played a competitive singles format with it.

In 6th gen I played a lot of Battle Spot singles. I even reached #1 on the Showdown ladder! BSS has item clause and I found it actually did force creativity. Yeah Garchomp wants Life Orb but so does Blaziken. So okay, Garchomp gets Lum Berry, which Rest Rotom W wants... so Rotom gets Chesto Berry etc. Sometimes you find yourself considering weird items that you wouldn't use otherwise. It's less about min maxing and more about allocating limited resources.

It also gives you in-battle info that you can't get without it. If my opponents Ferrothorn has Rocky Helmet, and their Kartana is Scarf, then I can guess the Landorus is probably Lefties. It just gives you data on the opponents team that would be raw guesswork otherwise.

I overall oppose item clause because I think it fixes something that isn't broken. It also prevents fun teams like mono Choice Band and kills more viable combos like dual Specs Ghosts. But it adds an odd dimension to team building and battles that is easily overlooked.

Eh, I think BSS is in a bit of a different situation since the meta is just way faster paced, so a lot of the single use item choices end up having a much larger impact in a given match. For example, an item like Weakness Policy isn't too good in OU since surviving a super effective attack is difficult when you are constantly getting worn down by Hazards, Toxic, etc. Even if you do get the boost from Weakness Policy, you're committed to staying in, which is bad if the opponent has a hard counter to your mon, or you need to make use of it later for its defensive utility. However, in a fast format like BSS, where hazards and Toxic aren't as prevelant, its much easier to get mileage out of weakness policy and threaten a sweep, especially since its 3v3, so the opponent may not have brought their hard counter to the sweeper / wallbreaker even if it was on their team. Other items like Sitrus Berry or a type-reducing berries are more useful since they let mons avoid critical 2HKO ranges. Despite hazards not being much of a thing in BSS, since its a 3v3 format, switching is arguably worse since you might not have a resist to the attacker in question. Therefore, you'd get a lot more mileage out of these items than you would in 6v6, where you could just switch out to your Clefable or Tapu Fini if your Garchomp is fighting a Dragapult in every match. Matches being 3v3 inspire a bit more situational creativity than in 6v6 since both you and your opponent have less options that are obviously good, like switching to your hard counter.

Item choice is important in Gen 8 OU and I do think that some mons would benefit from running different, more niche items (speicifically on Hyper Offensive teams). However, for balanced and stall teams, I don't think item clause inspires too much creativity and if anything, handicaps teambuilding a bit since some of the more fringe Pokemon get hamstrung by the lack of Leftovers.

 

[Finchinator]

Item Clause is not going to happen unless there is massive support and an ideological shift in the community.

We touched on this earlier in the generation at numerous points, but I will gladly rehash arguments and respond to specific points if requested when I am back on computer on Tuesday or Wednesday if requested.

 

[FreshJuice]

Spike Stacking.......

- It is bad.... but is it though?

Since Heavy Duty Boots has become a heavily controversial topic, I wanted to put this post and show that spikes stacking as a pure playstyle is "underplayed" imo. Many have argued by and far that spikes have gotten worse and that definitely true but not to the extent a few think. Lets start.



Chapter 1: The setters.
There are three "decent" setters right now.

Ah, the almost uncontested blanket check to everything.

This mon has a lot of stuff going for it but in this particular post, I will highlight what it does as a spike stacker.
-Has decent mu against the boots mons.
Few being,
(shits cc aint doing crap)
(how does the mons even get through)
(Body press, contact, leech)
(If specs, get blown but if its the based dd try do do smth)
/ (whip if you run that or just leech and wait)
(body press that thing)
(leech seed)
(leech)

Pretty neat mu across the board against the boots mons. Flying types are still a thorn but the birds can be dealt.
-Knock off.
Its knock off and removes boots.
-Against a few defoggers/spinners it has kinda decent matcups?
(kinda stalls you but mag exists)
(scout for heat wave and fb)
(run whip)
(scout again)
(leech whatsoever)
(body press)
and much more...
Fits on plethora of playstyles unlike.....


Heard birds dying from radiation but never heard dying from boots.

I am pretty sure many people know why shits in uu yadayadayada but i dont give a damn.
-While ferro blankets everything, this shit just hard walls few and gets dunked by few.
(Defo L)
(not as bad yalls think it can id and bp since plasma does barely 50 252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 84-102 (25.1 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO )
( Just bp)
(L)
(try to id asap cuz burn)
(id)
(Id as he dds)
(Die)
(Press it)

-Defog/Spin Mu
(Its a joke)
(Id)
(Die)
(Cant switch in tho)
(Ig you can try?)
(Okayish mu if it is defog but cm taunt click x)

-Notable qualities in whirlwind, taunt, defog if you want it, emergency sturdy.


Thou shall not call me demon, call me angel. And I am a spider.

Boot and defog matchups rarely matter cuz this mon is usually leads off and gets them off but you can use it as a defensive/utility mon but hey you do you.

Chapter 2: The abusers.
Recent metagame trends like abusing lando at any moment gladly, being the most offensive defensive mon on balance and BO there are lot of mons which appreciate spikes. Lets look.


Simply strike surging strikes, see stuff sadly sacked scarily sink.

Yalls know what this does. Basically just click buttons after you weaken your checks.
Many of common checks/counters without future sight , , , and decently bulky water resists.
The thing of these the two most common is and .
One resists all the moves urshifu wants to go for(btw the set is choice band triple stab and ut) and the other is weak to u turn. They limit urshifu's breaking potential by quite a bit as they are not passive and depend on 30% chance to burn or pivoted out into a steel one locked into surging.
Lets see the most used items on slowbro.
Oh the anti spikes but colbur is rising to check weavile. So and slowbro is not the hardest to knock.
So assuming you have three layer of spikes and banded u turn is doing 30-40 ish its already at around low30s.

And spikes on fini ruins it.


Daring Defensive defog dummy?!? DELLexa define defiant.

This mon skyrocketing and getting noticed is huge. It abuses spikes, has good defog mu and defiant is a godsend. This mon is so shockingly strong. And the thing is, spikes are way more threatening than stealth rocks and opponent might even panic to remove them asap and thats a chance for the bird to nuke smth.


PANIC!! PSYCHIC PRINCESS PUNISHES POOR PALTRY POKES PLAYING PRANK.

This is similar to the above two, absolute nuke under terrain and abuses spikes because now , , , , dont check it with ease. Even corvi gets forced into a dilemma of defogging or just roost which can be taken advantage of.

Chapter3: Niche Spikers/Abusers




All these mons are HO leads.



with cuz who got check



and

These are just a drop of the bucket. Like how people found out that hail and is legit in ou.

Chapter 4: Shit Spikes or Sneaky Spikes?!?

They have definitely fallen off but not off a cliff instead off a two storey house. It has seen better days and is constantly being nerfed like literally every gen.
Gen5 - Magic Bounce
Gen6 - Defog
Gen7 - Everything and their family getting defog.
Gen8 -
It is underplayed and underrated like remember the teams in gen6 spikes stack balance, very similar to that. At the end of they its coming from a guy who uses shit mons and has been criticized for shit takes. So take it with a grain of salt. Now step below. And english is not my main lang so, grammar might be shit.

Have a fine one!

 

[Myzozoa]

The non HDB tour meta looked terrible from watching most of the games in that tournament. No thanks.

I think the no HDB meta advocators would also say that there would be a long iteration of suspect tests in the post-boots meta. I feel like the direction that has the most momentum behind it rn is that there will be no more suspect tests, unless new content is released, but I am not convinced that the meta we are playing rn is the best we could have and want to explore more bans. This is the main reason I'm sympathetic to a boots ban, if only for the sake of doing something that might get more centralization into this tier, where I feel team match-up is too determinant of results between skilled players atm.

 

[JTD783]

the direction that has the most momentum behind it rn is that there will be no more suspect tests, unless new content is released,

To briefly elaborate on this, OU is not expecting new content any time soon. BDSP releases next Friday but it is expected to be isolated from SS for a long time, if not indefinitely, depending on what happens when Pokemon Home updates.

I don’t know what the council’s plans are, but to my knowledge, future suspects are not off the table despite the expectation of no new content. The most recent metagame survey alluded to that, anyway.

 

[Finchinator]

We're going to have a new survey in the next week or so (could be closer to 2 weeks, but near future) and that will determine our next steps.

BDSP has no bearing on our current metagame.

 

[Finchinator]

We're going to have a new survey in the next week or so (could be closer to 2 weeks, but near future) and that will determine our next steps.

RESPOND RIGHT NOW

seriously rn

 

[ausma]

RESPOND RIGHT NOW

seriously rn

no

 

[Finchinator]

no

Smogon King please demote your moderators who refuse to participate in the tiering process ;_;

 

[Creator of Chaos]

I'm the Creator of Chaos. Unless Asuma can assure me Megas or atleast mega Loppuny will be returning soon I'm gonna have to support Finch and say do the survey. I'm to chaotic not follow this decree and neither should any of you........

Ok so this post aint entirely about how great I am I do wanna say I'm glad Volcarona is being looked at even if its just a cursory glance. Might just be my poor skill in gen 8 but the amount of pressure it puts on team builder and in battle is enormous. I always feel I'm 1 double switch away from auto losing and Thanks to boot's its even harder check then previous gens where it usually only got 1 shot at sweeping as opposed to now where it can come in multiple time's. Its only real hard switch ins are Tran or sap sipper water mons. Only true revenge killer is azumarill. Of those only heatran is really splashable. HDB, Quiver dance, roost + its typing really make a nasty combo.

As i said may just be me but I'm its getting looked at.

 

[Finchinator]

The survey results will go up tomorrow night because I am quite tired now. My only spoiler will be that Kyurem received 69% support for tiering action among qualified players -- nice. Stay tuned

 

[Baloor]

The survey results will go up tomorrow night because I am quite tired now. My only spoiler will be that Kyurem received 69% support for tiering action among qualified players -- nice. Stay tuned

69% (nice) support for tiering action among qualified players

 

[Tio Chico]

Hi, I would like to contribute my 2 cents, or not even that, with my opinion of Kyurem and how it weighs on the metagame. In fact I've been inactive recently but I hope my perspective of the last few days is somehow helpful, even if it's to disagree.
I will be commenting based on my experience of the past few days, both played and watched, in addition to relying on data/information from the October stats (1695);

Items

| Choice Specs 34.980%
| Heavy-Duty Boots 20.201%
| Choice Scarf 14.255%
| Never-Melt Ice 10.217%
| Leftovers 9.185%
| Metronome 6.568%
| Other 4.594%

Moves

| Freeze-Dry 88.756%
| Earth Power 86.177%
| Ice Beam 64.070%
| Roost 41.938%
| Focus Blast 35.261%
| Substitute 29.794%
| Draco Meteor 17.053%
| Dragon Dance 12.465%
| Icicle Spear 12.149%
| Other 12.338%

has respectable stats, its worst stats are 90 defenses. Huge HP of 125, both Attack of 130 and a decent Speed of 95, combined with ample movepool and useful ability, allows him to take not only defensive but offensive directions.
Its type is not the best defensively, mainly due to its weakness to Stealth Rock, which limits its switchs, but it has interesting resistances to Water and Electric (in addition to Grass), making Kyurem one of the best Substitute users.
Kyurem's flexibility places enormous weight on the metagame, in addition to the constraint that each set, common or niche, presents. Each answer for a set can be surpassed by another, making the risk of a wrong reading in certain cases irreversible.
Just to give you an example, Blissey, who while still at risk of suffering 2HKO for Specs Focus Blast, can be considered a “safe” answer, is setup bait for Dragon Dance set, while Melmetal, who responds to DD set, has no solid recovery and is gradually defeated by Choice Specs, although he hits predict and receives Ice-Type hits in switch.

Next, I would like to comment on the main sets;

Choice Specs

Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest /Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power / Draco Meteor

The most common and with immediate destructive power, wide coverage and with minimal need for moveset variation. Kyurem can consistently abuse (cough 70% acc Focus Blast). Ice + Ground has near-perfect coverage except for rarely seen things like Rotom-H, Shedinja, and Levitate Bronzong. Draco Meteor is an absurd nuke while Focus Blast lets you check even the best answers, like Blissey (252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 332-392 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5 % chance to 2HKO) and Scizor (252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 179-211 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).
Slowking-Galar is a solid and durable answer thanks to Regenerator, but surprise;

Slowking-Galar Spreads

| Modest:248/0/12/204/44/0 14.865%
| Calm:252/0/12/124/120/0 12.798%
| Calm:252/0/0/176/80/0 5.094%
| Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 5.076%
| Modest:252/0/0/252/4/0 4.064%
| Sassy:252/0/12/124/120/0 2.943%
| Other 55.159%

Max SpDef+ is not among the most common spreads.

Slowking-Galar Moves

| Sludge Bomb 89.702%
| Future Sight 84.564%
| Flamethrower 78.747%
| Ice Beam 46.107%
| Scald 26.545%
| Earthquake 25.148%

Only 26.5% use Scald, which would be highly recommended to thaw Slowking-Galar in an eventual and almost unavoidable Freeze.
Volcarona is a necessary mention for resisting Ice-moves and not taking super effective from Ground/Fight, but that would mean using the Roost set, sacrificing coverage, and, although problematic and restrictive, being totally neutralized by a potential Heatran partner.

Choice Scarf

Kyurem @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Earth Power / Draco Meteor

Here Kyurem stands out against offensive teams, surprising opponents who are tempted to stay and try a “free” U-turn damage, such as Tornadus-T, Dragapult, Tapu Koko and others. I won't deny that 14% was something that surprised me, which makes it equally interesting to share.

2 or 3 Attacks + Roost

Kyurem @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Metronome / Never-Melt Ice
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe /other
Timid /other Nature
- Roost
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam / Substitute

More flexible and customizable set, can be more offensive with 3 attacks and an item that increases its power, or more defensive abusing its Substitute that resists Seismic Toss and Scald easily, with HDB to maximize its switchs. “Pressing” (I tried to avoid this pun as much as I could) on both defensive and offensive teams.

Dragon Dance aka BulKyurem DD

Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 76 Def / 52 SpD / 132 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Icicle Spear

The set I really want to comment on because I see how underrated it is with only 12% usage lol. The spread is my own customization so let me explain;
248 HP, Speed to pass any non-Scarf Heatran and Buzzwole variants, plus Dragapult and Zeraora after a single Dragon Dance. SpDef to withstand 2 Clefable Moonblast without SpA EVs, and Defense for Zeraora never breakers the Substitute with Knock Off.
This set takes advantage of Blissey and bulk Water that come in predicting the Specs set.
It's possible to drain all PP from things like Close Combat, Gyro Ball, Focus Blast, V-Create and Magma Storm, still allowing for a fifth Substitute thanks to Leftovers. Either the only move the defensive opponent has or an offensive opponent locked in Choice item, after being outspeeded by Dragon Dance.
Even Corviknight without setup is easy prey, as Body Press is far from 2HKO;
168+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Kyurem: 156-184 (34.4 - 40.6%) -- 47.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery.
What I have to say is that this set alone invalidates several teams balanced or even offensive.
I play totally careless and impatient but still 6-0 just for Kyurem reasons. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1457382745-2p7a0x6o7nhkxzdqgvp8k0bz9e6r3k9pw

Other Options and Mentions
Weather Ball (Fire), niche in Sun teams, with choice Specs disintegrates Ferrothorn, Corviknight and even Bronzong, as well as Shedinja.
Rock Slide, bye Volcarona and Shedinja.

Teammates:

Landorus-Therian 45.548%
Corviknight 35.196%
Heatran 20.353%
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike 19.020%
Tapu Fini 17.039%

Teammates; Now I want to briefly comment on how Kyurem synergizes and is supported by the most common Pokémon in the metagame.

The most used Pokémon would obviously be the most used partner, Fight resistance, Defog and Rocks support in addition to U-Turn.

Support Defog, Dragon, Fairy and Steel Resistances, Pressure core, drains limited PP from Melmetal's Double Iron Bash.

Double resistance to Fairy and Steel, can remove Slowking-Galar without Earthquake, plus bulk Waters and Volcarona.

Here Kyurem is a good partner for Urshifu, taking advantage of the opportunities that U-Turn provides.

The best partner Kyurem could have; Removes AV from Slowking-Galar with Trick or Knock Off, Defog, limits Toxapex, Ferrothorn and Slowbro/king with Trick https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1458511962-znofq7g28y69eic5zt77hn8erxawb37pw, but mostly, Misty Terrain. Allowing Kyurem to not mind Scald Burn https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1457446712-9nnexxl1rwjv5huyqnf7rg1vvgq26gqpw and even cutting damage taken from Dragon-moves in half, so Kyurem can stay ahead of, for example, Dragapult even after having spent HP on Substitutes. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1456848190-xxbnj2i1fyiyim0ty40gruw18072ypspw
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Kyurem in Misty Terrain: 272-324 (60 - 71.5%)

Removing Melmetal and Bulk Up/Iron Defense Corviknight is awesome for the Dragon Dance set.

Healing Wish
You can save the game in case like me you end up playing recklessly just wanting to abuse Kyurem.

In conclusion, in my opinion (TL;DR); Kyurem is spammable, flexible, forcing limited counters with limited sets. I support Kyurem being discussed/suspected. And I'm ok if Finchinator announces Quick Ban tonight, making all this writing a waste of time.

 

[Finchinator]

And I'm ok if Finchinator announces Quick Ban tonight, making all this writing a waste of time.

Not happening. Kyurem would require a public suspect test in order to be banned, which will happen if we determine tiering action is appropriate. A quickban would be wildly inconsistent with previously established tiering conventions.

 

[RedDiamond1024]

Can anyone explain to me why people think magnet pull should be banned and not magnezone itself? Imo magnet pull seems like a balanced ability, only being able to trap steels, many of which can hit opposing steel types super effectively (tran, and melm) or can pivot out of it (scizor).

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Can anyone explain to me why people think magnet pull should be banned and not magnezone itself? Imo magnet pull seems like a balanced ability, only being able to trap steels, many of which can hit opposing steel types super effectively (tran, and melm) or can pivot out of it (scizor).

It's a combination of some people arguing that trapping abilities in general should be banned (usually as a response to the common arguments made during Arena Trap's suspect, and sometimes even extends to trapping moves; honestly most of these arguments seem in bad faith to me, but they exist) and then also because we saw during the Dugtrio suspect in Gen 7 that Diglett and Trapinch were still problems, and Magneton is way closer to Magnezone than Diglett is to Dugtrio.